Russian mnemonic keyboard three letters missing: щ ч э

Hi

Generally agree with you if you need to use many different computers (most people don't say I am using one at work ~10hours a day :) and then one at home) but need to make some comments:

1. Yes, it's good whne OS has already a built-in mnemonic layout, but why not the way it was for previous versions? Why the change? Apple did the same thing - added Russian mnemonic layout - but it was one the community got used to since 1996 - with 1:1 correspondence:

since 1996 it was proven - both by native speakers and non-native speakers (like members of AATSEEL.org) that it's much easier to learn 7 positions of a phonetic 1:1 layout (yes, it's better whn it comes with the OS as Apple does) - one time learning! - rather than constantly, all your life :-( keep analyzing the text to figure out whether you should use blank space method or not.

I really cannot see how these 2 approaches could even be compared - 1-time momorizing of 7 positions or entire life guessing (and if your guess was wrong - "bad Cyrillic" or correction).

I mean when person types a text (not one line) s/he should concentrate on the context rather than on "combination rules and exemptions". No?

2. Based on AATSEEL.org members experience and also on discussions with non-native speakers on some forums, I cannotfully  agree with that:

"I can definitely see how their mnemonic approach makes life easy for library and other workers who may have to periodically input in Cyrillic even without total command of Russian. They MS Cyrillic input is pretty much a WYSIWYG match to transliterated Russian."

What I saw is that - unlike us, native speakers - non-native speakers does not find it clear what combinations are good for what Russian letters, especially with the (known) difference between US and European approach:

• for German speakers ''щ" is not 'sch' and some other combinations are also different

So there is no "single way" in this type of input, while in phonetic 1:1 layout there is no confusion, it's straight forward and "stable" among any user. Again, no need in "blank space" workaround either.

It's why 1:1 layout has won the market comparing to 'combinations conversion' (it's what I see on dozens and dozens Russian language forums outside of Russia in the period 1996-2013) -

I mean comparing these two, without adding users of Standard Russian  layout as it's a very different way of typing:

• before MSKLC, that is, before Windows XP (back in 2001?) there were more users of "quessing algorythm of combination conversion" (translit.ru or "in place" (in any application) conversion like in programs "Letter Zu" or "CrazyKeys" allow) than users of 1:1 phonetic layout (mostly due to the hard way of installing it)
• after 2001 (when it's just one click on setup.exe made by MSKLC) it's so opposite - many more users of 1:1 phonetic layout  and nowadays it's hard to find a user CrazyKeys or Letter Zu among millions of people who use Russian-language forums from n Australia and NewZealand to USA and Canada, from Israel to Spain and France, from China, Korea and Japan to Germany and Greece

My observation is that people like to type without remembering any exemptions which require a work-around, so they either learn Standard Russian layout (good for you that you decided to join that group - it contains the biggest number of members even outside Russia) or 1:1 phonetic layout.

Same with me personally - I did try 'combination conversion' many times and found it extremely annoying and frustrating when the same (!) Russian letter has to be typed differently in different words (noncense!) like:

"vyshel" - "вышел" where Latin 'y is used for Russian 'ы'

but in "vyuchil" same Russian letter 'ы' has to be typed using "blank space" work-around

same with say Russian 'й':

• "pojti" - Latin 'j' was used
• but not in 'rajon" - same 'й' has to be typed using "blank space" work-around

:(

And there is no list of such exemptions - Russian language is very rich.

It's why most people who want to stick with mnemonic typing, choose 1:1 phonetic approach even - as we see in this thread - under Windows 8 - it's just much less tedious and demanding:

similar really to a learing of Standard Russian layout - learn neede positions once and your are done - no work-around and guessing in the future!

:)

All true. But for me it still argues in favor of just learning, finally, to “go native” and learn the original keyboard, which is less of a moving target. There is a lot of mnemonic comfort in having “m” coincide with «м», “k” with «к» etc., etc. but, like with this thread, there is a lot of baggage with it, too. Finding the gotcha moments with particular letter combinations is fun, but in a practical sense best practices will vary by user pretty widely, depending on the volume of the work they do, the type of work and, of course, how savvy they are both in tech terms and in terms of Russian linguistics.

As for comparisons with Apple: sure, some things are nice and consistent. But – correct me if I am wrong – you do not even have an option in iOS or MacOS to edit something like a keyboard layout (as you can with MS when you want, say, to put your “ь” under the apostrophe, swap the default positions of ж/в, etc.). I was a big Mac user in the 90’s, and when my work was strictly academic. When I entered corporate, multinational, commercial-paced and commercially oriented computing, I found that, love it or hate it, Windows and MS programs really do offer the path of least resistance. I have never, ever looked back.

Ну, удачи! J

Hi Gerhard,

Pavel mentioned you had problems trying to run MKLC 1.4 on Windows 8.1. I've had a look at my machine (Windows 8.1 64 bit) and this is how I got it workiing.

a) installed it as normal (I may have used the ADMINISTRATOR option for this - try this to see if it makes any difference)

b) the program was installed in Program Files (x86)  - the default

c) the font size for the screen is normal ie 100%

d) running the program in the normal way allows editing of a keyboard layout and creation of the install files.

d) running an install file then logging out and logging back in fully activates the new keyboard. It won't be active until you have done this - even though it will be shown in the keyboards list within Settings.

I'm puzzled as to why you are getting the CL.EXE etc retrun code 1 problems.

It might be worth checking that you have the Visual C++ Runtimes installed. I have both the 2008 and 2010 runtimes installed (both the x86 and x64 versions for each of these). Not sure which one is relevant to MKLC 1.4. The other requirement for the program is the .NET framework. Do you have this installed? I have version 3.5 (includes versions 2.0 and 3.0) and 4.5 installed.

There is some mention of a problem with 8.3 file names being disabled causing problems with MKLC. Not sure if this is relevant now, but in case it is, see the following link

http://levicki.net/articles/tips/2006/09/29/HOWTO\_Build\_keyboard\_layouts\_for\_Windows\_x64.php

I certainly didn't need to mess with anything like this - just did the simple install as described above.

I hope some of the above is of help to you.

Mike

I personally don't have Windows 8 (but will ask Mike to visit this thread), but for now you can use the other 2 methods:

• build with MSKLC under XP/Vista/Windows 7 and then install under Windows 8 - it works fine as it was tried by many people already
• install under Windows 8 one of existing phonetic layout if they fit your needs:

  http://print.WinRus.com

:)

I’m an electronic publisher, heavily active in projects involving Russia, Russian-speaking countries and the Russian language. I am also a professionally trained Russian interpreter and translator, who has had to use Russian in an English OS PC environment for about 30 years. For years and years I did the MSKLC sort of thing, always customizing my keyboards to fit my preferences. But since last year, and particularly now with the arrival of Windows 8.1, which can synch your settings across multiple PC’s, I learned that it’s just easier to learn and use the out-of-the-box keyboard mapping. Why? Because a) when you have an OS upgrade, a system crash or other event requiring you to wipe and reload a PC, it’s sooo much easier to just install the out of the box variety than to have to re-customize the keyboards and install them again from scratch (let alone on multiple PC’s); b) when you have to work на чужом компьютере, it's also infinitely easier to be able to just jump right on and do your Cyrillic work. It’s kind of like learning how to drive a car with a manual transmission…. Once you go through the pain of learning how to drive a stick shift, it gives you a skill that ports to other environments well and avoids what is sometimes an awkward limitation. And now that with Win 8.1 your settings can travel with you, it’s so great to log onto a virgin device, and just hit the ground running without complex setups. I bit the bullet and have learned to adapt to the (admittedly awkward in some regards) MS mnemonic method. In truth, I think I’ll bite the bullet one more time and just learn to touch type on a native Russian keyboard. I have already had to do that for Korean language, since you cannot remap a Korean IME, and that was an eye-opener. Did not take that much to just learn it, and the dividend is so great to be in that country (Korea, Russia) and just be able to type on any old keyboard… Also, in defense of the MS methodology, I can definitely see how their mnemonic approach makes life easy for library and other workers who may have to periodically input in Cyrillic even without total command of Russian. They MS Cyrillic input is pretty much a WYSIWYG match to transliterated Russian.