Thanks.
Yes the laptop had Norton Antivirus on it when I bought it. I knew I wanted to used Defender so uninstalled it immediately and I did use a software removal tool.
But Defender still would not turn on.
This was when I installed Lavasoft as I have used it for a long time on my old laptop which was an XP and I was happy with it.
But as I said I installed Windows 8.1 and then Lavasoft wouldn't work any more. I uninstalled it but didn't use the removal tool that time.
It looks like I should try one more time with removal tools for both Norton and the Lavasoft, using your links
I will see what happens, and if I still cannot turn Defender on, then it is going to have to be something else to use to protect my laptop.
Thanks for all the other links. They are very good, and thanks for responding.