Microsoft backup programs, questions....

Sorry to answer so late. I was busy possibly ruining someone else's computer in another thread.

Not a problem, I've done this in real life!  LOL

You definitely are right to be wary of possibly obsolete WEB material. Usually, I will check to at least see whether the instructions still exist before pointing somewhere anywhere.

Sometimes I notice the  instructions simply do not match with what I've been doing with the current version.  And sometimes I will simply try to follow these instructions.  Another good reason to have my text systems.

"Given the problems I'm having on this mini, I decided to start all over, and reinstalled 20H2.  It won't crate a recovery drive...  again."

I was able to create one in my 20H2. It did take 2 hours -- or was it 3? Seemed longer than usual. You could do without it, & just use the recovery environment of an Installation USB drive (repair your computer). But the Recovery drive has an option that I think would reset the computer to its current version (if made by the current version). And the reset that is on an Installation drive I think will be to the latest version of Windows, even if greater than the version of the Installation drive. But I've never done either.

In all this testing, I don't think I've had one take this long.  Were you making a drive with system files, or without system files?  I did both, as I wanted to know what the general difference was in the size of thumb drive required.  I want to be able to tell a client what size to buy, and the best/most complete one to create.  MS is no help here, as you can get a message to use a drive larger than 16GB.  Fine and dandy, but how much larger?  No indication at all for this.  And no indication to the user as to what is included in the system files.  And I now wonder if you shouldn't make a new drive every so often to reflect changes, updates, and additions.

Before going further, I need to differentiate the mini drives I have.  The one I've been talking about and using I'll call L1.  The second I'll call L2.  Then only major difference I know of is L1 does not have built-in wireless, L2 does.

The failed attempt I mentioned on L1 was using a 32 GB all but new low priced thumb drive.  And I wondered if thee was a problem with the thumkb drive.  I took that thumb drive to L2, and it created the Recovery drive with no problem.  Same settings, but I don't remember which.  Probably included the system files..

This made no sense to me, unless there was something screwed up in Windows on L1.  So I booted from this Recovery drive, and installed the base system image I had created earlier.  Now L1 will make a Recovery drive, with and without the system files.  My conclusion?  Something in the OS was screwed up.

"I have the same Intel driver listed twice.  Resonably sure it's a display driver, but like you, why?  The only other Intel product that I remember is in the system is the SSD boot drive."

Well, you could do a Search for it to know what it is. Or type the driver name into the Find box of MSInfo32 (type into Search) to see what it is.

Yours is twice too? But what about your other drivers listed there, are they doubled too? Hmm. So, now I tried to turn Core Isolation/Memory Integrity on again, & the display driver is still listed just twice -- not thrice. So, there must be a different reason for it. Maybe it is there twice because it happened in 2004 for me twice. Once when I upgraded to it from Windows Update. But I reverted that due to instability, & later upgraded again using an ISO. Or maybe it was the upgrade to 20H2 that did it. It was only after that, I think, that I knew to turned that setting off.

Maybe we have made the wrong assumption.  Not how many times a driver is used, but how many devices/peripherals/whatever use the same driver.  And maybe, they aren't using the same version.  Does MSinfo32 list the versions numbers?  This isn't something I've never had a reason to check on.

I got sidetracked, and forgot to include the fact that the two versions of the thumb drive have differing options.  And, if you way a  system repair disk from the Backup and Restore control panel, you

still other options.

There's overlap in those options, but which is the smartest way to go?

"MS is no help here, as you can get a message to use a drive larger than 16GB.  Fine and dandy, but how much larger?  No indication at all for this.  And no indication to the user as to what is included in the system files.  And I now wonder if you shouldn't make a new drive every so often to reflect changes, updates, and additions"

My 20H2 Recovery drive is on a 16 GB flash drive, but only 5.28 GB are used. That's only a tad larger than 2004 used...

Yes, it is good practice to update the Recovery drive for each new version of Windows. As you said, things change. There could be new options & apps/commands could be updated. And it is my belief this guy...

Reconstruct.WIM can reset the computer to the version of Windows that made it. But you still lose your apps & user files. OTOH, if you do a reset from an Installation drive (or from the internal Recovery partition, i.e., Shift+Restart), I think you get the latest version of Windows (not necessarily the version you've got installed or that is on the Installation drive). But I'm not exactly sure owing to the paucity of up-to-date documentation, which is also your complaint. If you do a repair/upgrade-install from the Installation drive, you better be doing it to the same or a lesser version of Windows. Then, you get repaired or updated to the version that is on the Installation drive. You get an option to keep apps, settings & user files. Finally, of course, if you do a clean install from the Installation drive, it gives you the version that is on the drive. I don't really know much more than all that. In a true crisis, I'd rather go for my Windows system image backup. But I've done both a clean install & several repair/upgrade installs. A Feature update coming in through Windows Update is also an upgrade-install.

"My conclusion?  Something in the OS was screwed up."

I agree. So, when you've got a problem that could be anything, try DISM & SFC which take about 15 minutes apiece. But they sadly are rarely a cure. After that, a repair-install can do wonders, but it took 2 hours (at least) to run last time I did it. But I got Search back. It had become non-functional both in the Taskbar & in File Explorer in version 2004.

"Maybe we have made the wrong assumption.  Not how many times a driver is used, but how many devices/peripherals/whatever use the same driver.  And maybe, they aren't using the same version.  Does MSinfo32 list the versions numbers?  This isn't something I've never had a reason to check on."

I doubt it. I think it looks for what's loaded, not what's using it. Here is what MSInfo32 shows for mine. It is easily identifiable as my display driver,..

"MS is no help here, as you can get a message to use a drive larger than 16GB.  Fine and dandy, but how much larger?  No indication at all for this.  And no indication to the user as to what is included in the system files.  And I now wonder if you shouldn't make a new drive every so often to reflect changes, updates, and additions"

My 20H2 Recovery drive is on a 16 GB flash drive, but only 5.28 GB are used. That's only a tad larger than 2004 used...

Mine are representative of yours...  when it works!  LOL

Yes, it is good practice to update the Recovery drive for each new version of Windows. As you said, things change. There could be new options & apps/commands could be updated. And it is my belief this guy...

But, knowing you should make a new Recovery drive after a period of time is not something a newbie would know.  That is why I said in an earlier post, I would really like to find something as simple to set up as Time Machine on a Mac.

Let's say you go out and buy your first Mac.   Hopefully, the sales person convinces you to buy an external drive for a back up.  You go home, plug the Mac in, go through the setup, similar to what I assume you do with a new off the shelf Windows computer, and get to the desktop.  (The last off the shelf Windows computer I bought was an XP unit.)  You plug the external drive in to the Mac, and the Mac asks you if you want to use it as your Time Machine backup drive.  You say "Yes".  And you're done.  Your backup system is running.

Did you leave something out here at the end of the paragraph????

Reconstruct.WIM can reset the computer to the version of Windows that made it. But you still lose your apps & user files.

Makes sense, but is deeper into the "bowels of the beast"  than I have time for right now.

It's far and away from the needs of the newbie, which are the needs I'm trying to find an answer for, ATM.

OTOH, if you do a reset from an Installation drive (or from the internal Recovery partition, i.e., Shift+Restart), I think you get the latest version of Windows (not necessarily the version you've got installed or that is on the Installation drive).

This is my understanding too, especially if you pull the files from MS.

But I'm not exactly sure owing to the paucity of up-to-date documentation, which is also your complaint. If you do a repair/upgrade-install from the Installation drive, you better be doing it to the same or a lesser version of Windows. Then, you get repaired or updated to the version that is on the Installation drive. You get an option to keep apps, settings & user files. Finally, of course, if you do a clean install from the Installation drive, it gives you the version that is on the drive. I don't really know much more than all that. In a true crisis, I'd rather go for my Windows system image backup. But I've done both a clean install & several repair/upgrade installs. A Feature update coming in through Windows Update is also an upgrade-install.

That system image wold be my preference, too.  If that didn't work, I prefer to go the clean install and get the latest version of W10.  If you do an older one, your just going to spend the time waiting out the updates anyway.

But before I do anything, I run BelArc Advisor to get product keys for the software.  Another program, Produkey (?) that does the same thing, but I've never used it.  I also copy the Users folder to try to save as much user data as possible.  If I see something different in the root directory, I'll get that too.

If the user loses some or all of the software becuase they don't have the installer and keys, to bad, so sad.  You can't hold their hand on everything.

"My conclusion?  Something in the OS was screwed up."

I agree. So, when you've got a problem that could be anything, try DISM & SFC which take about 15 minutes apiece. But they sadly are rarely a cure. After that, a repair-install can do wonders, but it took 2 hours (at least) to run last time I did it. But I got Search back. It had become non-functional both in the Taskbar & in File Explorer in version 2004.

That assumes DISM and SFC actually run.  The last time I tried it, on my main system that I knew had problems, neither would run.  Gave me an error message about halfway through for each of them.  So, just did a repair install.  I've got a thread about that somewhere here.

"Maybe we have made the wrong assumption.  Not how many times a driver is used, but how many devices/peripherals/whatever use the same driver.  And maybe, they aren't using the same version.  Does MSinfo32 list the versions numbers?  This isn't something I've never had a reason to check on."

I doubt it. I think it looks for what's loaded, not what's using it. Here is what MSInfo32 shows for mine. It is easily identifiable as my display driver,..

But it doesn't tell us how many items are using/sharing the driver.

Man, whoever coded this forum had to be a rookie at best.  What a time waster it is to use.

But then, all forums are time wasters in this regard.  :-(

(1) "That assumes DISM and SFC actually run.  The last time I tried it, on my main system that I knew had problems, neither would run.  Gave me an error message about halfway through for each of them.  So, just did a repair install.  I've got a thread about that somewhere here."

DISM & SFC are a sore disappointment fixing anything, & that goes double when they won't even run. But I still like to see them both complete successfully. I trust yours do so now that you did the repair-install. Here are mine...

C:\WINDOWS\system32>D ISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth

Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool

Version: 10.0.19041.572

Image Version: 10.0.19042.630

[==========================100.0%==========================]

No component store corruption detected.

The operation completed successfully.

C:\WINDOWS\system32>SFC /ScanNow

Beginning system scan.  This process will take some time.

Beginning verification phase of system scan.

Verification 100% complete.

Windows Resource Protection found corrupt files and successfully repaired them.

For online repairs, details are included in the CBS log file located at

windir\Logs\CBS\CBS.log. For example C:\Windows\Logs\CBS\CBS.log. For offline

repairs, details are included in the log file provided by the /OFFLOGFILE flag.

C:\WINDOWS\system32>

(2) "But it doesn't tell us how many items are using/sharing the driver."

I'm just glad it stopped at two. When I check again & again, it remains just two. I guess it happened once when I upgraded to 2004 & again on the upgrade to 20H2. The former was from an ISO, & the latter was through Windows Update which took mere minutes & really just turned on switches. But that must have been enough to do the dirty work.

(3) "Man, whoever coded this forum had to be a rookie at best.  What a time waster it is to use.

But then, all forums are time wasters in this regard.  :-("

Now & then it does act up. What I hate most is I can't copy/paste a picture into it anymore. The picture must be saved, then inserted, now.