Trouble Making Image Backup with Acronia True Image 2016 -- apparent misread of space

I think at the moment, I want to at least think on this. I’m leaning to leaving it as-is, but not definite about that yet.

For one, I’m thinking that the certain way to make sure we get Part 5 right is to let it happen automatically during the next upgrade, after first deleting part 5 right before upgrading. But then I balance it against possibly moving bad sectors to C when I delete Part 5, and I’d rather keep them contained, if they exist.

But we’re all are talking of me maybe not even having any bad sectors — I wish Acronis would say the same as chkdsk, I wish I felt more confident about Acronis, or more confident that it is wrong. If their are bad sectors, better way would be do it ourselves now, and that way avoid moving bad sectors to C — but any time you do something, you might run into surprises or trouble. Its  like toss a coin!

But I do think I should not lose the Push Botton partition, I do think Slance is right about it having Gateway stuff on that, and I don’t want to lose that stuff.

1. I didn’t know chkdsk would mark the sectors, so avoid they would be avoided going forward. That throws more uncertainty into things. Re Acronis ignoring bad sectors, yes, when setting up to do a backup, Acronis does have a setting to opt to ignore bad sectors. I tried that with the old drive, but Acronis went through the bad sectors anyway, and took tons of time. I’m pretty sure I chose that setting yesterday too, and it was much faster, don’t know if that is because there were not really any bad sectors or because this time it did as I set it. Also this time, it is running differently than with the old drive. The old drive never gave me a popup saying there were bad sectors so it will be a sector-by-sector backup, not the full disk backup I wanted. However, I had read in Acronis somewhere that that is the case if you have bad sectors, so I was aware of it. But the point is, Acronis is not even being consistent in how it works.
2. Let me get straight on it now that it is the focus: What is WinRE.wim. Is that the small system image, will restore the OS? Can I leave that 2004 WinRE.wim on Part 6, and make a new one to put on Part 5 — Slance was pointing to where you can make one from Control Panels? That way, not mess with Part 6, and so can’t mess up Part 6. I don’t think I want a full Acronis system image on it, I’ll leave that for the external drive — but interesting idea. Besides, I think a Windows OS-made backup image would be better for the partition, as I could use the Acronis backup only when booted from Acronis.
3. Yes, I can boot to Advanced Startup out of the navigation in Settings — select, then restart. Issue there is that that is useless if your problem is that you can’t boot! If not, you can’t get to Settings. But I can get to it now if we need to use it, because I can boot now.

 Command Prompt in Advanced Startup says: Windows 10.0.19041.1. So, from what you say, that means the WinRE.wim on Part 6 is the active one. Again, that partition likely also has the Gateway stuff.

But, if it is current, and it is active, why move it? It’s current, it works, is the one I will get when using it for recovery. How is there an improvement by moving it to Part5? It would be another matter if it were Win 8, and we were putting on a Win 10 one. And because of the Gateway stuff, I certainly want to keep Part 6 anyway.

So, I’m thinking on it, and at the moment, I doubt I will feel certain one way or the other very immediately.

(1) "I’m thinking that the certain way to make sure we get Part 5 right is to let it happen automatically"

Your computer is an odd one...

12/22/2012  05:17 AM       201,275,120 winre.wim    <<< Part. 2   Win 8

07/08/2017  02:38 PM       453,134,379 Winre.wim    <<< Part. 5   Win 8.1 or older Win 10

07/15/2020  05:33 PM       555,507,721 Winre.wim    <<< Part. 6  Win 10, version 2004

12/22/2012  05:31 AM  13,077,714,302 install.wim    <<< Part. 6  Win 8

The older WinRE.wim's (recovery environment) should have been getting deleted as the newer ones were added by new versions of Windows coming in. Anyway, partition 5 has been passed over for every upgrade since the one in 2017. Partition 6 has been getting all of them since then. The older ones (say, 1909's) did get deleted.

You'd have to delete both partition 5 & partition 6 for Slance310's prediction to come true. Otherwise, they'll continue to get put into partition 6. Or, delete 6, but move its Recovery folder into 5 first. Then, the new ones will go into there too.

(2) "possibly moving bad sectors to C"

Like Slance310 suggested, it could be somehow the bad sectors were on the image that you restored to the new HDD. So now it looks like the new one is bad. But I know you said you'd expect C: to have them too in that case. Or it could be what I opined, there really are bad sectors but Windows will never use them. Acronis is reporting them even though they are outcasts -- because it's doing a sector by sector & taking all the sectors. Make the other kind of image that only takes occupied sectors which sounds preferable anyway. Then I'd worry, if that message still showed up.

Hmm -- looking at my .pdf -- it seems you may do a "sector by sector" backup (if you want) but do not select "Back up unallocated space". Then only occupied sectors go into the image.

(3) "But the point is, Acronis is not even being consistent in how it works."

I haven't had mine installed for quite a while, but only run it now from Bootable Media. My go-to image maker is Windows system image backup & restore (Win 7) which still is here in 2004. 

(4) "But I do think I should not lose the Push Botton partition, I do think Slance is right about it having Gateway stuff on that, and I don’t want to lose that stuff."

All the Gateway stuff that you currently use & love gets put into an image you make now. And they'll come back when it's restored. The stuff in the Install.wim on partition 6 is dated 12/22/2012. Any updates to the Gateway apps done since then will be wiped out, if you ever find the button to push that restores that .wim. It reverts to Win 8 versions, & Windows, itself, will be Win 8. And any Gateway app you've uninstalled since 2012 will be revisited upon you.

(5) "What is WinRE.wim"

WinRE.wim is the file (in the Recovery partition) that holds all the tools that show up at the "Choose an option" screen. Normally, Shift+Restart will boot to that, if you've got a partition that holds it & ReagentC points to it. Apparently, you have to do it the long way: "START, Settings, Update & Security, Recovery, Restart Now (under Advanced Startup)". Your active one is in partition 6, & it is a 2004 WinRE.wim version. It is inadvisable to use a WinRE.wim that is older than the version of Windows that is installed, such as the two others you've got. That is why the prior ones are normally automatically deleted each time a new version of Windows comes in.

It is the Install.wim (or an Install.esd) that is used to install an entire Windows installation, which includes the initial version of all the partitions: EFI, MSR, Windows, & Recovery.

(6) "Yes, I can boot to Advanced Startup out of the navigation in Settings — select, then restart. Issue there is that that is useless if your problem is that you can’t boot! If not, you can’t get to Settings. But I can get to it now if we need to use it, because I can boot now."

If you can get to a Sign-In screen, there is a Power button at the lower right which can be used to do a Shift+Restart. But apparently that doesn't work for you. And anyway you are basically correct.

In the case you can't boot, then an external recovery environment is essential to have. You've got one on your 2004 Installation USB drive. You plug it in, boot to it through BIOS, & select "Repair your computer" (instead of to install). Then it reboots to a WinRE.wim that is on the USB drive. There is also one on a Recovery drive. Type that into Search to make one. You'll need at least an 8 GB USB drive to make one.

(7) "Command Prompt in Advanced Startup says: Windows 10.0.19041.1. So, from what you say, that means the WinRE.wim on Part 6 is the active one. Again, that partition likely also has the Gateway stuff."

Yep. The WinRE.wim is good. The Gateway stuff is a full Win 8 installation inside Install.wim, & it includes all the initial Win 8 versions of the Gateway add-on apps...

12/22/2012  05:31 AM   13,077,714,302 install.wim    <<< Gateway Win 8 Install.wim

07/03/2020  09:53 PM     3,482,988,958 install.esd      <<< Win 10 2004 Install.esd

(8) "How is there an improvement by moving it to Part5?"

The improvement is that we can repurpose partition 6 or delete it & move its space into C;partition. I think it best to do the latter & only suggested putting images there because you wanted to be able to recover one on the road.

1. Well, Part 6 has more than the WinRE.wim in it, lots more. The WinRE.wim in Part 5 is only 374 MB, that’s all the content in that part. But Part 6 has 12.8 GB of content in it. That would mean more than 12 GB of content that is not the WinRE.wim. That’s something, and I do think Slance is probably right about it being the Gateway stuff. I don’t want to lose that, so I don’t want to delete part. 6.

It does seem like part 5 has only that WinRE.wim in it, and it is an older one, and the system is not even using it for recovery, it is pointed at the newer one in part 6. So part 5 is a nothing, no use for it.

But part 5 is only 826 MB, an irrelevant amount, and while it might not have any bad sector, we can’t be sure. For a piddling 826 MB of space, I think it better to contain a bad sector in it. Right now, Acronis will backup the C part as full disk, faster, not sector by sector. If I let the piddling part 5 space go into it, Acronis will see C as having bad sectors and do nothing but sector by sector backup of it. And once the bad sector(s) got out, I would not be able to contain it again.

Acronis is doing a sector-by-sector because it will not do a full disk backup if it detects any bad sectors, it automatically reverts to sector-by-sector backup and you cannot change that, you lose your option for a full disk backup, it does it the bigger and more time consuming way instead.

Part 5 doesn’t seem to be causing any issue. Its an irrelevant size. But it contains possible bad sectors. If I could confirm it does not really have any bad sectors, I could say great, let’s delete it. But for a piddling amount of space, I can contain the bad sectors. In fact, maybe I won’t image it next time since it isn’t getting used anyway, just leave the old one there, and image the four other partitions.

So, it comes down to: If bad sectors might be on it, leave it be. If we could somehow confirm there are no bad sectors, get rid of it. We don’t want to simply move the WinRE.wim from 6 to 5, and then delete 6 — I would lose probably the Gateway stuff.

2. Slance was saying the bad sectors might be files instead of hardware. Chkdsk checked all the files on Part 5 and found no bad sectors — so it looks like hardware if chkdsk can be believed, IF there really are any bad sectors.

I certainly am not the expert here. But you are saying Windows will never use bad sectors. But I also have heard that it will, but the data on them will be bad/corrupted because of the bad sector, you can lose that data —thus, you can start having problems.

3. I boot the DVD my Acronis is on in order to run Acronis. RE Windows backup, I tried it once, after first going up to this new level of Win 10, and it would only back up three of the partitions, would not allow me to select any, it chose and chose three of them. Acronis also will compress, which, considering the size of my external drive, is an important consideration.
4. I think the Gateway stuff gets included in an image I make now — only if I image the partition it’s on. I’m saying its on part 6, the Push Button partition, so we don’t want to delate that after moving only WinRE.wim. Yes, I’m sure the Gateway stuff is from original 2012, but its not the system specifically, I guess it works with the system on Part C but from its own partition. It will only be put into an image I make now if I include part 6 in the imaging.

I will have to look back at previous, I thought you were saying the Install.wim on part 6 was a new one, current date, not 2012, that the OS upgrade was putting it there. Still, that isn’t the full almost 12.5 GB of space after WinRE.wim — is it.

5. OK, Install.wim. And as vs. WinRE.wim. Similar names, I didn’t realize we were talking of two different things. You are saying that Install.wim is a 2012 version, so win 8.0. I’m not sure how big that is, will have to look back at your previous. I understand that is never updated, but we could do an update to current? Is this the file Slance said I could make out of Control Panels? But I don’t really need it, do I? I already have the install disk burned as bootable to a DVD. But in an emergency, I could get a working computer back with the v. 8.0 Install.wim, and when I get back to my DVD, bring it back up to current. Reality is that I probably would always take my DVD with me on the road anyway.

It might be worth making and swapping in an install,wim from current OS. On the other hand, I am not so familiar with playing with these partitions as Windows set them up (on a Mac, you can access them directly, easily, they are right there, just go into them and do what you want).

How big is that install.wim? Is that the rest of the space on part 6, not Gateway stuff?

6. OK, and my install DVD even has the actual WinRE.wim on it. Does the Recovery drive have things on it not on the install drive? (And why would that be even bigger than the Install DVD?! The install drive should have everything on it, it has to install it all. The install DVD is a single layer 4.5 GB DVD. It might have been Slance saying that all that is on the Recovery drive is also on the install disk.
7. Oh, you’re saying the Gateway stuff is not separate, it is within the OS 8.0 install.wim. Then if I want to save the Gateway stuff, I have to save the Win 8 install.wim. Gee, the install.esd is the Win 10 OS only. The install.wim is Win 8 and Gateway stuff. OK. I do have Win 10 OS on the esd. If I want the Gateway stuff, I have to get it from the install.wim — can I install that stuff only, a selective install?
8. If I keep the 8.0 install.wim and the install.esd, I would not have any space worth mentioning to use elsewhere. Only if I lost the Gateway stuff, by deleting the install.esd, would I gain any worthwhile space. And space is the only benefit of doing as you suggest.  Well, I’ve been saying all along that I wanted to save the Gateway stuff, and now it seems that means no gain of space.

And I was thinking I did not have a new WinRE.wim, but seems I do, on part 6, and properly being pointed to.

I didn’t mean a full Acronis image, I was referring to what I now know is called the install.esd.

___

All this discussion here has been very helpful to me. A lot of details, but some of them were very important to my understanding of what we have been talking about. I was a bit mixed up by all the file names, especially the difference between WinRE.wim and Install.wim, and now even install.wim and install.esd — I thought you were simply using those two terms an interchangeable.

OK, so if I want to keep the Gateway stuff (and hopefully it is able to be separately installed, don’t want to have to install Win 8 to get it, although I would not have to be stuff at win 8, could then install current while keeping the gateway stuff), it doesn’t seem worth moving things from part 6 — I would have no space gain. Re pat 5, only benefit is space, it is an irrelevant amount, but the partitions will contain any bed sectors, which might or might not be on it.

I’m gong to think on this, but what I just said is how I’m leaning. A lot of discussion for me to make such a nutshell end, but it helped me understand what I’m trying to decide.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(1) The purpose of partition 6 -- that push button thing -- is to get the computer back to the condition it was in when purchased. That means Win 8 plus all the extras Gateway put on it...

2/22/2012    05:31 AM  13,077,714,302 install.wim    <<< Gateway Win 8 installation

07/03/2020  09:53 PM    3,482,988,958 install.esd      <<< Win 10 2004 clean install

That's 10 GB of extras. But you may have uninstalled or never used many of the extras, like a 3rd-party antivirus. Other extras, like certain old Microsoft packages, may have become obsolete or unusable in Win 10. All of that will come back -- if you find that button & push it. In addition, everything you installed since 2012 gets wiped out. And you can't pick/choose from it -- it's going to be all or nothing.

That is why you should be making your own system images. These include everything you are running today. That's Win 10 with all the Gateway stuff that you are using plus all the apps you've installed & drivers that were updated. Also, it includes all your user files -- Downloads, Documents, Pictures, etc. You should make a system image after something big happens & the computer continues to run well. Keep the last few system images. If/when necessary, that is what to restore -- not partition 6!

(2) Nothing that is on partition 6 is currently in use. It just sits there waiting for you to push that button. That is, except for the fact that Windows has decided to put its new WinRE.wim into partition 6. You get a new one whenever there is a new version of Windows. (Or even if you just do a repair-install of the same version of Windows, I believe the Recovery partition is regenerated.)

So, we should move the Recovery folder (which holds the .wim & few other files) from partition 6 to partition 5 & set ReagentC to point to it. Then we may repurpose partition 6. We'll delete it & create it again with a letter. It no longer will be a Recovery partition, & Windows will let it alone.

(3) I don't know what's going on with Acronis. But the above won't move any sectors into C:. When I run it from Bootable Media, it does put a restriction on what I can do. I think it has to be a full backup (as opposed to incremental & differential). And I think it has to be all the partitions. But I don't think it has to be sector by sector.

(a) Is it saying explicitly there are bad sectors so it must be a sector by sector backup?

(b) Or are you assuming the fact it seems to require sector by sector means there are bad ones?

(c) Can you uncheck "Back up unallocated space"? Then, even in sector by sector, it only will take used ones.

(d) Is there a .log file mentioning anything?

I'm due to make my Seagate DiscWizard (an older Acronis) backup soon since I've upgraded to 2004. Here's what I've got so far...

I'll have a look around at what's required. If Acronis True Image is your go-to image maker, you should install it & use its Windows interface for greater flexibility. But for sure it takes only 15/so minutes or less to run for me. My HDD is 1 TB but used space is much, much less...

And that still includes Windows.old although my upgrade was 11 days ago (7/9/2020).

(4) "But you are saying Windows will never use bad sectors."

Well, I'm saying -- if CHKDSK &/or HDD firmware catches bad sectors before Windows puts a file into it -- the bad sector is marked as unusable or otherwise made unavailable for use. Then Windows will not try to put files there. CHKDSK said partition 5 is fine. That means either there are no bad sectors on it, or the bad ones on it are now invisible to CHKDSK. But maybe Acronis still sees them -- I don't know! There's nothing in the .pdf that speaks of bad sectors except...

"Ignore bad sectors (the preset is disabled) - This option is present only for disk and partition backups. It lets you run a backup even if there are bad sectors on the hard disk. Although most disks do not have bad sectors, the possibility that they might occur increases during the course of the hard disk's lifetime. If your hard drive has started making strange noises (for example, it starts making quite loud clicking or grinding noises during operation), such noises may mean that the hard drive is failing. When the hard drive completely fails, you can lose important data, so it is high time to back up the drive as soon as possible. There may be a problem though – the failing hard drive might already have bad sectors. If the Ignore bad sectors check box is left unselected, a backup is aborted in case of read and/or write errors that could occur on the bad sectors. Selecting this box lets you run a backup even if there are bad sectors on the hard disk ensuring that you save as much information from the hard drive as possible."

It doesn't say whether the bad sectors may have been marked unusable or whether they currently contain any data. But, if you hear "quite loud clicking or grinding noises" a lot, then best replace the HDD again -- no matter where the bad sectors are!

(5) You made a Win 10 Installation DVD -- not a USB drive? Well, I'm sure they have the precise same files on them. They each have an Install.esd & a WinRE.wim. The former is used to do a clean install or an upgrade/repair-install. The latter is used to provide an external recovery environment for when the internal one isn't available.

A Recovery drive (type into Search) also can provide many of the functions of Installation media including an external recovery environment. It won't do a clean install but it can do a reset using a "Reconstruct.wim" when internet access is unavailable. It's like a clean install, but delivers the same OS you had when the Recovery drive was made.

Thanks for the additional input. (I’m getting diverted by life again. Significant issue is fighting with my phone provider, phone is out since yesterday, can call only over computer on Internet, and internet is getting shaky too.)

1. Yes, I think I understand that now. But it comes down to the space on part 6. And I have way more space than needed already. Meanwhile, the WinRE.wim there is current, pointed to, and usable as needed. Chances are I will never need to get the Gateway stuff again, but it is there if I want to. OK to install OS 8, it will give me the Gateway, then I just use my disk to bring it back up to current Win 10 level. Yes, of course I still make regular Win 10 backups. If I were tighter on space, that would be a much more significant consideration.

I don’t know what the term “psh button”is referring to, there is no physical button on the computer, unless it is referring to some function button or some secret key combination.

Yes, of course use a full image of the drive for restoring — if and when you can.The recovery partitions are more for emergencies when you don’t have that on hand. But also, I found in the past that I could not go to a restore ping on the internal drive when booted from the OS install disk — that function would not let me go to any drive other than the bootable drive, which was the install disk. So, sometimes you might need to use the partitions, not a install or recovery disk.

BTW, not arguing, just explaining my thinking.

2. If I were inclined to delete that Win 8 file on part 6, this would be the best idea, take the space, no reason then not to.
3. Yes, understand space from Part 6 would either be an empty partition or would move into Part 5. (I haven’t run into any restrictions like that with Acronis, other than if it detects any bad sectors, it will do nothing but a sector-by-sector backup. I even can select which partitions to backup, it does not have to be all of them. Yes, it specifically says there are bad sectors, so only a sector-by-sector backup can be done. I have never backed up unallocated space. I haven’t looked for a log file, I can never read those things anyway.)

It looks like your backup file is only about 17-21 GB? Pretty small. Isn’t the OS alone more than that?! Mine have been 115-125 GB. My drive have up around 160 GB of stuff on it, and I don’t really have a lot on it. Your’s being an older version of True Image might be more limited.  I did check for it to “ignore bad sectors.” This time that seemed to work. Last time it seemed not to ignore them, it takes a ton of time with each of them until proceeding. Like I said, Acronis seems to be inconsistent.

5. Yes, install DVD. Yes, they shod have the same ting on them.